From Dr. Irene's website.

[Charlotte]

A Recovery Map

Give up denial, accept reality. Yes, reality may be unfair, painful, etc., but it is. No matter how much you may hate it or want to wish it away, you cannot. (Reality can also be really cool!)

Distorted reality is a byproduct of irrational thoughts that create panic, depression, helplessness, etc. While believing a fantasy is created to protect the self from bad feelings, it ends up creating them.

Self-deceit is an excellent way to give your personal power away and to lose control over your life. Why would you want to do that?


Avoid the common traps of getting stuck in If-Only Land, It's-Not-Fair Land, My-Way Land, I'm-An-Awful-Person Land or any other type of compulsive over-emotionality. No matter how "unfair," "terrifying," etc. reality seems, it is. There is no other (sane) option.

When you do get stuck in a trap, and you will, just notice that you are there. Then get yourself out. Now.

Obsessing over unfairness, unlovability, awfulness, etc. is counterproductive and offers nothing but pain.

Obsessing is not about noticing your feelings, sitting with them, or letting them go.

Obsessing is a symptom and just another way of not facing what is.


Chill out and begin to problem solve. This is the time to sit with yourself and notice your feelings and what information they are trying to convey. Be objective and honest with yourself. Take your time and weigh your available options.

Sit with what is uncomfortable or sad. Notice it. What is it telling you?

Let it go. Get on with the rest of life.


Act. This is the level of skill, such as assertion, as opposed to acting out of any type. Mastery at this level promotes trust in the self, self-respect and personal power.

When in doubt, do nothing.
Monday morning quarterback your failed experiments, learn from them and repeat steps. Simply move on and incorporate new knowledge.
Pick up a good "how to" book on assertion. Learn what you don't know.
Moral of the Story:

There is no "good guy" and no "bad guy." We're all a little broken. So, don't worry about what your partner is doing or not doing, just look at what you're doing. Attaining personal responsibility is each person's business. Nobody is off the hook.

Reproduced with permission, Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site) copyright 2009. http://www.drirene.com/abuservs.htm

[Cecilia]

Great info, thanks!

[Cecilia]

There is also this interesting article on self-deception. http://www.skepdic.com/selfdeception.html

[Mariana]

You know, in the book I just finished writing on this subject, I wrote When in doubt, confront it with reality. It's painful to see how many people get stuck in denial of reality, not because they want to stay there, but because they have no clue as how to get out of that place.

Rosanne, I appreciate a lot your comment. Not many people are able to see it that way. I was banned once from a website for stating people should acknowledge their role in the relationships they set with others, and that meant "accountability or responsibility," it did not mean "blame" or "fault." It was sad to see how many people there refused to take any responsibility about their own feelings and decisions. Instead, they kept pointing fingers at others and hoping their abusers would understand, and maybe -one day- they would change.

Abusers may change or not, but that is beyond our control. We can only be responsible for our own feelings, our emotions, the decisions we make. Thanks so much for your post.

[Lola]

"""There is no "good guy" and no "bad guy." We're all a little broken. So, don't worry about what your partner is doing or not doing, just look at what you're doing. Attaining personal responsibility is each person's business. .""

Sorry again, but this last paragraph is nonsensical. Yes, there are the good guys, and yes, there are the "bad" guys (gals).
For example the entire population of everywhere does not have a PD. The percentage in actual fact is quite low. There are vast numbers of people who do not make life a living hell for their partners/spouses or other loved ones. These are the people who were taught/have learned to be "interdependent", to be "their own person".

All of this "counsel of perfection" in the writer's article is fine and dandy a) for the person who finds her/his way to a site such as this or other similar, and b) for the unfortunate individual who can grasp such concepts and implement them all on her/his own without support from say a therapist (not everyone has the MONEY to go to a therapist).

"Chill out and begin to problem solve", says the writer. Yep. Great!
Tell that to the woman or many women who got into the entanglement with the abuser without knowing it was happening, who married him, who is in deep, has children, doesn't have much money or none at all, lives in local authority housing, has maybe hit the bottle out of desperation, is at a dead end, certainly has not got the money for a therapist, or anything else. Sure, she can go: where? It is a well-documented fact that most assaults (and in some cases, murder) of abused women who leave the abuser somehow, take place AFTER she has left.

Yes, when we can think clearly (and no one thinks clearly after years of emotional and mental abuse) we can certainly be accountable for ourselves. That is stating the obvious.

Let us now move on to the "wealthy" lady who is in an abusive relationship/marriage. She may be better educated, was maybe even more aware, but she is not going anywhere either. She is well aware she is being abused, she feels awful, but she is not about to give up the status, the house, the car(s), the help in the house, etc. etc. The abusive partner/husband will be giving her hell, her unhappiness is desperate, but .....
She has the money to go to a therapist, but she doesn't. Why? Because she does not want to hear what she knows the therapist is going to say (in fact she knows herself anyhow without any therapist telling her).

In either case, the poorer woman, or the wealthier one, or any other in between, just cannot "clarify" her thoughts as if throwing a light switch. There are FOO issues (family of origin) as sure as day follows night in these cases. In every solid, single case such as these that I have met online, offline, and merely reading the papers, the FOO issues (verbal violence in childhood, childhood abuse, emotional abuse in childhood, PD parents, etc.) were at the heart of the present problem.

Something as ingrained as that, rooted in infancy, does not suddenly rectify itself with a little session of "clarity of thought".

Lola

[Mariana]

Well, a remarkable feature of that forum I was banned from was that it resembled a huge pity party place where its members used that forum to post their endless rants and no one dared to oppose to the leader of the forum. It was like a bunch of "sheeples" led by a blind, one track minded person. But it reminded me of something really useful, we cannot force others to see things our way. Some people just like to impose their views on others, no matter if the are disrespecting other people's right to think freely what they want.

As I discussed on another website, the Internet is plague with self appointed healing gurus that will ban you if you disagree with them. In real life, we may agree or disagree, we have the right to choose. Unfortunately, in some countries, the government will ban you too for thinking different from them, but we still hold the right to think the way we want and stand for our views.

Rosanne Kresse said:

Mariana,
I can't believe you were banned from a website for stating such -- although I do believe you. I am, however, not surprised that some people who have been abused don't think any of it is their responsibility. They think somehow when we state such things we are saying it is their fault. It is not their fault that people are abusive, what usually is their fault is that they let their feelings of love for the person end up spiraling to being enmeshed with the abuser and once enmeshed it is very hard to see where you stop and another person begins. Although I have not been abused physically or even emotionally to the extent of not being allowed to see my family, abuse is also language that is used or subtly tearing one's self esteem down. This I find is not recognized in our culture, unfortunately. However, I can tell you I have been enmeshed with my ex-husband as well as my children. Being enmeshed does not let others take responsibility for their feelings, you feel them for them and think for them. It is a very complicated thing and when I can coherently articulate those subtlties, I will post in a forum.

Looking back I can see how really dysfunctional it is to think for someone simply because you have been so close to them you can practically read their minds. The truth is you can not read minds and when you do that, it helps the other person to become weaker and more dependent on you, as most abusers are looking for power. Their insecurities lead them to being abusive, so when you think for them it contributes to their low self-esteem and eventually neither of you can "get out".

The power of acknowledging your role is so freeing, but most want to stay a victim, but those who do can't distance themselves enough even if they leave an abuser from their own mistakes, hence they go into another abusive relationship. These people usually have a hard time setting good boundaries, if any at all. It is that "I love you" syndrome of sacrifice at all costs, that the movies depict. Reality is not that way. Relationships are about individuality and learning to be your own person first, letting the person you love be their individual self and then deciding to share yourself with each other. Very different scenario.

[Mariana]

One side note here... On another forum, Dr. Carver's website, we had a similar discussion going on. I strongly advocate for children's rights. I have two children of my own (not kids anymore) and they and to endure a lot. I have made myself responsible for that. But on the other hand, I have also been a victim of child emotional abuse by a couple of parents who had serious mental health issues. However, in an attempt to emotionally survive, I sought a reference of common sense at school. Fortunately, I had a good school counselor when I was in 5th grade or so.

By this I do not mean that parents should not be responsible for their children's wellbeing. Yes, they are accountable for that, no doubt. Children don't ask to come to this world, we bring them, hence we need to teach them how to protect themselves from abusive people and how to respect other people's rights. We are all entitled to have our own opinions, we are all entitled to defend our views, but we must also remind ourselves from what place we are defending our views.

And here, I am speaking for myself, now. Whenever I support that parents should take good care of their children, I'm still angry mine didn't. I can't deny that. And when I say sometimes kids have options, it's because (maybe it's one in a million cases) I was able to do that.

But then again, this is my personal viewpoint, I cannot force my viewpoint on any of you, or tell you whether your are right or wrong because I would be disrespecting your right to express your opinions here.

Given the fact that this is a site that aims to help people get information or heal from emotional abuse, if I disrespected other members here I would be emotionally abusing them... That wouldn't look good, uh?

[Mariana]

Lola, bear in mind that Dr. Irene might be referring to emotional abuse in relationships within her community. In other communities it can be a completely different story, so don't get mad! :P

Here, in Argentina, especially in the northwestern region, there are very very poor communities, no way they can afford therapy there, so different churches and welfae agencies have provided therapeutic services to the local people. I really don't know if it works or not.

I posted some of Dr Irene's articles on the CareCircle net and because Dr. Irene also thinks that victims have to make themselves responsible for their role in an abusive relationship, I got bannd from that site. We all have our views, sometimes we agree sometimes we don't.

I personally still have a hard time when I don't agree with other people's views because I tend to make them see things my way, but I'm getting better at accepting others may just think differently.

Like I said many times, the world is a lot larger than we think. And cultural differences can be tough sometimes. I speak a lot about this on my soon-to-be.published book, because my second husband was Cuban and he thought certain things were "wrong" while I thought were "right"... hence all the endless arguments, fights, etc.

Lola said:

"""There is no "good guy" and no "bad guy." We're all a little broken. So, don't worry about what your partner is doing or not doing, just look at what you're doing. Attaining personal responsibility is each person's business. .""

Sorry again, but this last paragraph is nonsensical. Yes, there are the good guys, and yes, there are the "bad" guys (gals).
For example the entire population of everywhere does not have a PD. The percentage in actual fact is quite low. There are vast numbers of people who do not make life a living hell for their partners/spouses or other loved ones. These are the people who were taught/have learned to be "interdependent", to be "their own person".

All of this "counsel of perfection" in the writer's article is fine and dandy a) for the person who finds her/his way to a site such as this or other similar, and b) for the unfortunate individual who can grasp such concepts and implement them all on her/his own without support from say a therapist (not everyone has the MONEY to go to a therapist).

"Chill out and begin to problem solve", says the writer. Yep. Great!
Tell that to the woman or many women who got into the entanglement with the abuser without knowing it was happening, who married him, who is in deep, has children, doesn't have much money or none at all, lives in local authority housing, has maybe hit the bottle out of desperation, is at a dead end, certainly has not got the money for a therapist, or anything else. Sure, she can go: where? It is a well-documented fact that most assaults (and in some cases, murder) of abused women who leave the abuser somehow, take place AFTER she has left.

Yes, when we can think clearly (and no one thinks clearly after years of emotional and mental abuse) we can certainly be accountable for ourselves. That is stating the obvious.

Let us now move on to the "wealthy" lady who is in an abusive relationship/marriage. She may be better educated, was maybe even more aware, but she is not going anywhere either. She is well aware she is being abused, she feels awful, but she is not about to give up the status, the house, the car(s), the help in the house, etc. etc. The abusive partner/husband will be giving her hell, her unhappiness is desperate, but .....
She has the money to go to a therapist, but she doesn't. Why? Because she does not want to hear what she knows the therapist is going to say (in fact she knows herself anyhow without any therapist telling her).

In either case, the poorer woman, or the wealthier one, or any other in between, just cannot "clarify" her thoughts as if throwing a light switch. There are FOO issues (family of origin) as sure as day follows night in these cases. In every solid, single case such as these that I have met online, offline, and merely reading the papers, the FOO issues (verbal violence in childhood, childhood abuse, emotional abuse in childhood, PD parents, etc.) were at the heart of the present problem.

Something as ingrained as that, rooted in infancy, does not suddenly rectify itself with a little session of "clarity of thought".

Lola

[Mariana]

Yes, children learn from us, whether we like it or not. When we were children we would learn from what other adults did. Maybe some things we just learn them on our own by exploring ourselves the world around us. Each person is unique and so are their life experiences. I found this project a healthy way to channel that negative energy that I had bottled up for so long and didn't do me any good.

And I, too, believe we need to get to know other people better before engaging in a relationship. Plunging into relationships (something I used to be good at) speaks of poor impulse control. In other cases, it may account for people's emotional dependence (or dependency) - not my particular case since I've always been kind of a lonely wolf on a "by choice" basis. I like being on my own as much as I like being with someone. Now, when I fell in love with my exes, I didn't take enough time to study the whole situation... I was young then!! =)

Now, I sort of take all the time in the world.

I think the "ideal" option is to agree to disagree since we will always have differences. I will right a separate post about this because there's something funny I'd like to mention about this.

I think it takes time to build a healthy relationship, but most people rush into relationships for different reasons. Thanks a lot for your input :)

[Lola]

Heh heh. I never get mad, Mariana!
But I do tend to find lack of logic very exasperating.
Emotional abuse is emotional abuse whether it happens here, in the Andes or in Alaska. Abuse is abuse.

Yes, I made that point in my post. There are poor people, men and women who cannot afford therapy. I am perfectly aware of the very dreadful conditions in which people live in many parts of the world, even in my own part of the world there are people who could not afford a therapist.

I am sure Dr. Irene is a very worthy person, with her heart in the right place. However, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a victim responsible for her (his) abuse, absolutely no way. And how on earth can a person beaten down emotionally, psychologically (and possibly physically) MAKE herself (or himself as the case might be) responsble for her role in the abuse.

Everyone is entirely entitled to his or her views, including me. However, to say that someone is somehow "responsible" for her (his) role in being abused, well I do not consider that a "view". It is extremely hard for an abused person to get out of the bind, extremely hard, and vast amounts of help are needed. Often that help is simply not there.

I have absolutely no interest in making anyone see things my way. I have lived with different cultures for somewhere close on 35 years, so on some things at least I think I know what I am talking about. And abuse is one area which, where I am concerned, there is zero tolerance. I think abuse is dreadful, disgusting, demeaning, and should not be tolerated. It is only when others speak out against it, as much as possible, that maybe more will be done about abuse.

Ideally, in an ideal world, people would be warned in advance about abusers (as per Dr. Carver's articles), and there would be no abuse.

All the best to everyone
Lola

[Lola]

It isn't "love" which keeps the abused person in the bind. It is fear, often depression, sheer loss of "self", with one's mind so battered and beaten down through sustained emotional and psychological abuse (which always lead to violence in the long run).

http://www.centralscotland.police.uk/homepages/domestic_abuse/why_d...

Extract:

Frequently the abuser is the victim's only psychological support system once other friendships have been systematically destroyed. Other people feel uncomfortable around violence and usually withdraw from it. The victim may have no idea of the services available and therefore feel trapped. Often relatives tire of helping out repeatedly. Having no one to talk to and no one to turn to, the victim has no support system or potential helpers.

Low self-esteem
The victim sees their behaviour having no effect, as the abuser has repeatedly abused them and without any consequences. Severely depressed people cannot take action. Often victims consider there is something wrong with them, that the violence is their fault and that they deserved punishment. The victim may believe that if they could improve or stop making mistakes the abuse would stop because this is what the abuser tells them after every assault."

[Mariana]

Rosanne,

In all honesty, and considering how much money I lost with my first two divorces, I doubt there will be a thrid marriage.

A nice romantic relationship, a la "old" gilrfriend-boyfriend fashion will do for now. Maybe when I grow older (70s or 80s) I will consider a living together situation, but right now... hmmm... I'm okay where I am - lol

=)

[Mariana]

Hi Lola,

Well, I believe that if a man beats a woman up it's undoubetdly abuse, but go ask the Talibans, for instance. And what about those cultures where women are stoned to death (Amina Laval's case)... in those cultures, beating a woman up is not "abuse" but a man's right - outrageous, I know. To me it's more than just abuse. But they don't think it is, and boy I wish they could understand our western point of view.

Also, in transactional analysis, Dr. Eric Berne used to speak about a victim's responsibility in playing a role in an abusive relationship. I think that victims don't ask to be abused, they don't enjoy being abused. But when a woman, for instance, is in a relationship where her partner beats her up, and she leaves him, and then she forgives him, and comes back, and he beats her up again, and she stays and just complains, I honestly believe she has to make herself responsible for her coming back to him, not for his violent or aggressive behavior, because abusers will always be violent, abusive and aggressive regardless of whether there is a victim present or not.

What I do believe is that victims sometimes don't leave an abusive relationship because since it's not their fault that the abuser is a beast, then why should they leave? In fact, many stay in an abusive relationship in the hope that the abuser will change, which is something that rarely happens.

If the victim does not remove herself from an abusive relationship, it is highly unlikely the abuser will do so. It is the victim's responsibility to look after her wellbeing and protect herself (or himself), but this does not mean that that the victim is responsible for the abuser's behavior. No way.

This is exactly the topic why I got kicked out of a forum, regardless of how many mental health professionals see it this way too.

About Dr. Irene's article, I think it may apply to a very "light-level" of dysfunctional relationship, not where physical violence is involved, for instance.

Unfortunately, many victims keep getting involved with abusers (one after the other) because they don't change the way they relate to other people. If a person is emotionally dependent (or codependent) it is very likely that she or he will tend to set relationships with abusers, and this is something the victim needs to work on. The abuser has to work on his or her abusive behavior issues, but that's another story. This is where I see each person has their own resposibility for preserving their own emotional wellbeing. If they don't it for and by themselves, others won't do it for them.

;-)
Lola said:

Heh heh. I never get mad, Mariana!
But I do tend to find lack of logic very exasperating.
Emotional abuse is emotional abuse whether it happens here, in the Andes or in Alaska. Abuse is abuse.

Yes, I made that point in my post. There are poor people, men and women who cannot afford therapy. I am perfectly aware of the very dreadful conditions in which people live in many parts of the world, even in my own part of the world there are people who could not afford a therapist.

I am sure Dr. Irene is a very worthy person, with her heart in the right place. However, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a victim responsible for her (his) abuse, absolutely no way. And how on earth can a person beaten down emotionally, psychologically (and possibly physically) MAKE herself (or himself as the case might be) responsble for her role in the abuse.

Everyone is entirely entitled to his or her views, including me. However, to say that someone is somehow "responsible" for her (his) role in being abused, well I do not consider that a "view". It is extremely hard for an abused person to get out of the bind, extremely hard, and vast amounts of help are needed. Often that help is simply not there.

I have absolutely no interest in making anyone see things my way. I have lived with different cultures for somewhere close on 35 years, so on some things at least I think I know what I am talking about. And abuse is one area which, where I am concerned, there is zero tolerance. I think abuse is dreadful, disgusting, demeaning, and should not be tolerated. It is only when others speak out against it, as much as possible, that maybe more will be done about abuse.

Ideally, in an ideal world, people would be warned in advance about abusers (as per Dr. Carver's articles), and there would be no abuse.

All the best to everyone
Lola