From Dr. Irene's website.

[Charlotte]

A Recovery Map

Give up denial, accept reality. Yes, reality may be unfair, painful, etc., but it is. No matter how much you may hate it or want to wish it away, you cannot. (Reality can also be really cool!)

Distorted reality is a byproduct of irrational thoughts that create panic, depression, helplessness, etc. While believing a fantasy is created to protect the self from bad feelings, it ends up creating them.

Self-deceit is an excellent way to give your personal power away and to lose control over your life. Why would you want to do that?


Avoid the common traps of getting stuck in If-Only Land, It's-Not-Fair Land, My-Way Land, I'm-An-Awful-Person Land or any other type of compulsive over-emotionality. No matter how "unfair," "terrifying," etc. reality seems, it is. There is no other (sane) option.

When you do get stuck in a trap, and you will, just notice that you are there. Then get yourself out. Now.

Obsessing over unfairness, unlovability, awfulness, etc. is counterproductive and offers nothing but pain.

Obsessing is not about noticing your feelings, sitting with them, or letting them go.

Obsessing is a symptom and just another way of not facing what is.


Chill out and begin to problem solve. This is the time to sit with yourself and notice your feelings and what information they are trying to convey. Be objective and honest with yourself. Take your time and weigh your available options.

Sit with what is uncomfortable or sad. Notice it. What is it telling you?

Let it go. Get on with the rest of life.


Act. This is the level of skill, such as assertion, as opposed to acting out of any type. Mastery at this level promotes trust in the self, self-respect and personal power.

When in doubt, do nothing.
Monday morning quarterback your failed experiments, learn from them and repeat steps. Simply move on and incorporate new knowledge.
Pick up a good "how to" book on assertion. Learn what you don't know.
Moral of the Story:

There is no "good guy" and no "bad guy." We're all a little broken. So, don't worry about what your partner is doing or not doing, just look at what you're doing. Attaining personal responsibility is each person's business. Nobody is off the hook.

Reproduced with permission, Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site) copyright 2009. http://www.drirene.com/abuservs.htm

[Lola]

Mariana:_

So it is "really" only abuse if the abused person gets beaten up! I don't believe I am reading this! Are you saying emotional, psychological, verbal and mental abuse is not "really" abuse. In actual fact, the scars of emotional abuse last forever, it is far more damaging, whereas bruises and broken bones do heal.....

As for the Talibani and others of a similar nature, do not think for one moment that they do not know it is abuse. They know, but it does not suit them to admit it. The fact that they abuse still does not make abuse, of any kind, acceptable to any civilized person. Forget the Talibani for a minute: only the other day I read on a website that in the U.S.A. many men feel that by getting a woman in marriage, they have the right to hit her, if she is not "behaving" as they think she should!!!
Civilization is an on-going process. Not that very long ago the mentally ill were chained up in madhouses, or deemed to be "possessed".

As for methods of execution, well execution still takes place in the "Western" world, but I certainly will not be drawn into that particular hornet's nest.!

The reasons why abuse victims return to their abuser are not as clear-cut as you would say. Otherwise, if the abused persons could think and reason so clearly (in which case they wouldn't be with the abuser in the first place), no one would return to the abuser! This is a very complex area. Dr. Carver's articles on the subject need to be re-read, I am thinking......

There is nothing "light-level" about psychological or emotional or mental abuse. In fact it is the most damaging of all.....
Not me saying this, but the many many experts writers of books, articles and notes on the subject.
No responsible mental health professional will every say that the "victim" has responsibility for her abuse.

On this very site we have exchanged a lot of information precisely on why people are drawn (without realising it consciously) to an abusive relationship or marriage. Again, it goes right back to childhood in the vast majority of cases.
Why on earth would anyone want to be drawn to, less so stay with, an abuser, of there was not already ingrained inside them the idea that such a situation is normal, a sort of macabre "comfort zone".

I have spoken and listened to (talking real life here) so many intelligent, well-educated, bright, insightful women who were in abusive relationships/marriages. And take my word for it, it is all far far more complex than you would think.
Perhaps one of the reasons why many would open up to me on the topic, ask my advice, or just need to talk, is precisely because I would never ever say to them: "you are responsible for this abusive situation", or worse still "get your act together, sister, and get out of this".

Anyone in an abusive situation needs a lot of help; and often that help is not at hand.

Lola

[pjay]

hey ! do i have to separate you two ???? (that's just a joke, i heard it on the movie 'mystery men') lol

it's late for me (i'm working overtime) but i just wanted to toss in my two cents.(i'm no big spender !)

(hey, i wonder if charlotte even knows about this thread ?)

i know about childhood emotional abuse because i've been punched, kicked, pinched, dragged by my hair, slapped in the face & back-handed more times than i care to remember.

i've never raised my hands to any in my own family, but i have 'allowed' the unrest in my spirit to so influence the situations in my life, where i have been harsh, abrasive, & rude with my attitude & behavior.

a couple years ago my wife left (she also has had abusive childhood issues). & what i am learning to see, (in my situation), is how we both played a role in our dysfunction. i was the doormat, the martyr, the one who was carried out of work one day on a stretcher, thinking that this was the way i 'love' my family.(back issue, foundry work).

she became the verbally abusive father that i've always known. yet, what i could not see, & what both of us did not know, was how to change our situation. thank God she left ! i thank her that she left.

but right here i want to stop. i don't want to run down a list of reasons or facts of why i think i'm right or who's right or who's wrong. i'm not interested in proving one way or another a carefully constructed argument to persuade anyone about the things i believe to be true, or even what i feel inside.

to me, it's kind of like the idea of all of us being in a room. & we're sitting in chairs all along the four walls. say we're sitting in a big circle. & in the middle of the room there's one empty chair. & we're all looking at that empty chair.

now we're all looking at the same chair, right ? but each one of us is looking at it from a slightly different direction.
from a slightly different view point. from a slightly different perspective.
but we're all looking at the same chair, right ??????

we all know what abuse looks like.(feels like) no one needs to tell us.

one thing i am beginning to understand, is that when you heal, when you mend, there is a peace that is evidenced in your life ( in your spirit, in your body)

people that i talk to (not too many experts, professionals, or distinguished, mind you) that i know, that have healed some sort of pain in their life, all share this peace & this calm.
i'm not so sure i can accurately explain it, but there is this ceasing, of an anxious striving to 'set things in order'.

i'm not even sure that i can say that i've forgiven my father, but there is something that i feel in my spirit which says......that it doesn't matter.......to justify.....to condemn.....to shame......to prove...anything. it just doesn't matter.

this one thing i know. that people that have unrest....unsettling.....unnerving......means (to me) they still have the pain.
& helping to remove that pain from peoples lives seems to me the worthy effort that warrants all our best efforts.

people that have healed, are people that have a kind of grace. a special grace. a grace that extends outward to others & asks for nothing in return.

do i still have pain? i'm sure of it.

but the question is, which way am i moving ?

how is what i'm doing, adding to that pain?

how is what i'm doing, helping to heal that pain?

(i am way over tired & have to shower yet & go to bed) i hope i didn't add any sparks to a fire ! lol. love you all.

[Lola]

""That is so willful and closed minded""

Rosanne:

You know absolutely nothing about me, and I fail to understand why you would call me close minded (because I stand up for the victims of abuse!!!?.
You really have a lot of nerve to say that. I do not really care whether you wish to "discuss" with me or not.

In real life I wish I had a pound every one of the number of people who have approached me with their troubles (evidently they would not do so if I were the sort of person you label me as!). And yes, all their situations were "individual", as naturally they would be. And in none of the cases did any of those people have any responsibility whatsoever for being abused. The abuser is the one who hands out the abuse - not the victim. Maybe you could tell me what kind of role would an abused person have in their abuse.
Of course the abused person may have had boundary issues (in many cases because the person got no respect as a child, and was verbally or emotionally abused as a child). I am quite well aware of that, thank you.

What no one seems to realise is that abused people are in such a state, bewildered, hurt, confused, mentally off balance, that it would be a cruelty of the worst kind to even suggest that they might have deserved their abuse.

At this stage in my life I do think I don"t need lectures LOL.

Best wishes
Lola

[Lola]

Hello Psus:

I don"t know what the fuss is about. Is robust debate not encouraged, or is it somehow seen immediately as a "fight"?

What you have so nicely now explained in your post is the point I was trying to make, in this and in other posts. Again, it is not ME saying this -- there are thousands of pages written by mental health experts on the subjects, and thankfully there is so much more information now out there in the form of books, internet articles and so forth, so that now many people are able to put a name to what has been going on in their lives. It is not a question of me wanting to prove anything, it is not even a question of belief. The proof is there.

You are very fortunate Psus, really and truly, because you were able to heal, to get out of the pit.
However, I feel that any thinking person would condemn abuse, and the abuser. If we don't, what sort of a world do we live in? You have I am sure heard the saying (paraphrasing): "Evil prospers when good men stand by and say nothing."

So yes, in that spirit, I do condemn abuse.

I was fortunate to have a happy, lucky childhood, with great parents who knew the meaning of consistent parenting. Both my parents are dead, and I miss them sorely still.
Perhaps because I had the sort of childhood which allowed me to grow up to perceive things clearly, to be able to stand up for myself, to have the confidence to go out in the world, so many things, maybe that is why I feel so strongly for those women (and men too) who because they did not have that chance, then once grown up fell yet again into the claws of an abuser.


Best wishes to all from Europe.
Lola

[Lola]

Just thought I would put this in.

http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=59&...
""Truly attempting to understand the child within means acknowledging and recognizing its sufferings, rather than denying them. Then we can provide supportive company for that mistreated infant, an infant left entirely alone with its fears, deprived of the consolation and support that a helping witness could have provided. By offering guidance to the child we once were, we can create a new atmosphere he can respond to, helping him to see that it is not the whole world that is full of dangers, but above all the world of his family that he was doomed to fear in every moment of his existence. We never knew what bad mood might prompt our mother to expose us to the full force of her aggression. We never knew what we could do to defend ourselves. No one came to our aid; no one saw that we were in danger. And in the end we learned not to perceive that danger ourselves.

Many people manage to protect themselves from the memories of a nightmare childhood by taking medication of some kind, frequently of an anti-depressive nature. But such medication only robs us of our true emotions, and then we are unable to find expression for the logical response to the cruelties we were exposed to as children. And this inability is precisely what triggered the illness in the first place.

Once we decide to embark on a course of therapy, all this should change. Now we have a witness for our sufferings, someone who wants to know what happened to us, who can help us learn how to free ourselves of the fear of being humiliated, beaten, and maltreated as we were before, a witness who can assist us in leaving the chaotic mess of our childhood behind, in identifying our emotions and ultimately living with the truth. Thanks to the sustaining presence of this person we can abandon our denial and regain our emotional honesty.""

children have the genetic blueprint they inherit from their parents. These factors may help determine what kind of a temperament a child will have, what inclinations, gifts and predispositions.
But character depends crucially upon whether a person is given love, protection, tenderness and understanding or exposed to rejection, coldness, indifference and cruelty in the early formative years. The stimulus indispensable for developing the capacity for empathy, say, is the experience of loving care. In the absence of such care, when a child is forced to grow up neglected, emotionally starved and subjected to physical abuse, he or she will forfeit this innate capacity. "

[Mariana]

Hi everyone,

I'm sorry to see there's so many misunderstandings here. And I really don't understand why things I have written are twisted or put upside down.

First and foremost, my "beaten up women" was an example and on of the many forms of abuse (physical abuse).

I have just finished writing my book which is on emotional abuse, so after all the things have published, and topics I have discussed on emotional abuse, I honestly thought it was clear enough that I don't believe it's only abuse IF there's physical abuse and nothing else.

Emotional abuse, which is actually what this site is about, may escalate to physical abuse or not, and still is very harmful for the victims.

Also, I never said victims of abuse do not deserve to be helped. I only said that some victims of abuse, regardless of how intelligent they are, they do need to understand that the abuser will not rescue them. The victim needs to seek help or help herself or himself, if that is possible. Otherwise, they need to seek help. This is speaking of adult people. Children are whole different thing because -most of the time- they cannot seek help, so child protective agencies and other organizations should look after children's emotional wellbeing.

I am really sorry my English is not clear enough. But just in case the message did not go through, I still believe victims need to do the best they can to remove themselves from an abusive relationship, or get help to do so, because it is clear to me that the abuser will not do it.

Sometimes it's not easy. I am not saying it's easy, I don't think victims are braindead or stupid. I am saying adult victims of emotional abuse need to work on getting rid of an abusive relationship instead of just sit there and complain. I understand some victims face a lot of issues, including a sever depression and might be virtually impossible for them to break free, but at least they should be able to accet help from those who are trying to help them.

Each person is unique, it's person has their own level of sensitivity and of tolerance to abuse, so each person takes a different amount of abuse, some put up with little to none, some put up with a lot. In either case it's not fair.

It is ineed a very complex subject, but not all victims of abuse are brainless people who need to be rescued, in fact there are many who have overcome an abusive relationship, with or without professional help, and were able to move on in life.

Just my thoughts.

[Mariana]

Hi Psus,

No worries, we are just exchanging ideas.

Healing is a long term process. I think abuse has a devastating impact on the self esteem of a person. I am here speaking of emotional abuse now, I don't even want to think what domestic violence or sexual abuse can cause. I think they have different leves of harm, but maybe each person feels the pain with the same intensity. I don't know. I have only been a victim of emotional abuse, and to me that was more than enough.

But although we may think it's not as painful as domestic violence, for instance, some teens even commit suicide because of emotional abuse. Maybe it has to do with the mental health state of a person. Some people might be stronger and others might be more vulnerable.

In any case, healing is a whole and huge process. Perhaps it's a different process according to the different types of abuse (??) not sure. But, willing to heal sure helps us move in the right direction. That's why I don't encourage pity parties. They don't help. I understand we all need to vent, but we can't stay there forever, we need to push ourselves beyond self pity. And if we can't do it alone, we can all seek help.

Sometimes, if someone walks away from us we cannot understand and may want them back, but later we do understand it was a blessing that the absuer left. Although it may cause us some feeling of emptiness and pain. I believe that's common, since many people have reported that kind of feeling, too.

psus said:

hey ! do i have to separate you two ???? (that's just a joke, i heard it on the movie 'mystery men') lol

it's late for me (i'm working overtime) but i just wanted to toss in my two cents.(i'm no big spender !)

(hey, i wonder if charlotte even knows about this thread ?)

i know about childhood emotional abuse because i've been punched, kicked, pinched, dragged by my hair, slapped in the face & back-handed more times than i care to remember.

i've never raised my hands to any in my own family, but i have 'allowed' the unrest in my spirit to so influence the situations in my life, where i have been harsh, abrasive, & rude with my attitude & behavior.

a couple years ago my wife left (she also has had abusive childhood issues). & what i am learning to see, (in my situation), is how we both played a role in our dysfunction. i was the doormat, the martyr, the one who was carried out of work one day on a stretcher, thinking that this was the way i 'love' my family.(back issue, foundry work).

she became the verbally abusive father that i've always known. yet, what i could not see, & what both of us did not know, was how to change our situation. thank God she left ! i thank her that she left.

but right here i want to stop. i don't want to run down a list of reasons or facts of why i think i'm right or who's right or who's wrong. i'm not interested in proving one way or another a carefully constructed argument to persuade anyone about the things i believe to be true, or even what i feel inside.

to me, it's kind of like the idea of all of us being in a room. & we're sitting in chairs all along the four walls. say we're sitting in a big circle. & in the middle of the room there's one empty chair. & we're all looking at that empty chair.

now we're all looking at the same chair, right ? but each one of us is looking at it from a slightly different direction.
from a slightly different view point. from a slightly different perspective.
but we're all looking at the same chair, right ??????

we all know what abuse looks like.(feels like) no one needs to tell us.

one thing i am beginning to understand, is that when you heal, when you mend, there is a peace that is evidenced in your life ( in your spirit, in your body)

people that i talk to (not too many experts, professionals, or distinguished, mind you) that i know, that have healed some sort of pain in their life, all share this peace & this calm.
i'm not so sure i can accurately explain it, but there is this ceasing, of an anxious striving to 'set things in order'.

i'm not even sure that i can say that i've forgiven my father, but there is something that i feel in my spirit which says......that it doesn't matter.......to justify.....to condemn.....to shame......to prove...anything. it just doesn't matter.

this one thing i know. that people that have unrest....unsettling.....unnerving......means (to me) they still have the pain.
& helping to remove that pain from peoples lives seems to me the worthy effort that warrants all our best efforts.

people that have healed, are people that have a kind of grace. a special grace. a grace that extends outward to others & asks for nothing in return.

do i still have pain? i'm sure of it.

but the question is, which way am i moving ?

how is what i'm doing, adding to that pain?

how is what i'm doing, helping to heal that pain?

(i am way over tired & have to shower yet & go to bed) i hope i didn't add any sparks to a fire ! lol. love you all.

[Mariana]

I have been thinking about this whole discussion and how it has become like a little battlefield. I believe it's important to see that discussions like this arise in our daily life, every now and then.

We tend to make others understand why we believe we are right, and we tend to forget that we also need to respect other people's views.

When I was in high school, one of my teachers loved Nietzche and hated Descartes, so his opinion was quite biased. My position was that, just because Nietzche and many others said "black", I didn't have to agree with that. Maybe I have decided that I would agree with Descarte's views, and he happened to say "white."

Now, who is who in this world to tell others what they should believe in or who they should agree with? I love transactional analysis and that's not a secret. Now, I don't force people to accept Dr. Berne's views as a golden rule. And, he wasn't just "someone", he was a renonwed psychiatrist and the father of transactional analysis.

Some people are big fans of Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis while others don't fully agree with some of his views, which they consider outdated.

On another forum, where I usually participate, it's called Counselling Resource, there's a mental health professional, Dr. George Simon (PhD) and author of the best-seller "In sheep's clothing", who has his own theories about mental health disorders.

All these people (and we can post endless and validly useful links here, which is good), have their own views. Sometimes these views may coincide and others not, and sometimes, we may agree with them or not.

But that does not give any of us the right to insult other people just because they think differently. We don't need to become aggressive towards others just because they don't share our views. Or cause confusion to make others look silly.

I am happy this discussion has lead to our finding that we can certainly have different views and that we all have the right to express them here, even if we strongly disagree, but please, remember there's no need to insult each other, there's no need to be aggressive.

If we behave like that, if we insult or disrespect others, if we twist things we've written here or behave like bullies, we are doing ourselves a disservice, we are not doing ourselves any favor. We are self-abusing ourselves because we are showing we are not capable of discussing our differences in a respectful way. Why make oneself look bad?

I personally believe we can all do a lot better than that, myself included. This is the beauty of having an on-line community where we can agree to disagree in an adult and respectful way. I know we are all intelligent enough to do so. Even if sometimes we get carried away due to our own inner unhealed wounds. Let's get in touch with our deep emotions, and check why the emotional abuse problem affects us so much. It's a very sensitive topic and we all care about it.

Best to all, and thanks a lot for all your comments, I truly appreciate your sharing your thoughts and views here. It creates value in our lives :)