Thought provoking

[Lola]

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-HOAX.html

Excerpt:
Our romantic games would be harmless if everyone knew
that romantic love is a fantasy feeling.
But while still under the influence of romantic illusions,
some people make the life-altering mistake of getting married.
Perhaps we guard against
every form of political or religious mythology,
but what about the most potentially-harmful myth—romantic love?

If we eventually become convinced that romantic love is an illusion
—a web of projected fantasies and artificial feelings—
what do we do next?

We can abandon these cultural delusions and begin to establish
our relationships based on real information about each other
and genuine commitment toward each other.
Reality-based relationships might not have the same emotional high,
but, in the long run, they are much better for us.
Instead of projecting our pre-existing fantasies on others,
we can get to know them as they really are
—and as the persons they are becoming.

The wild, extravagant feeling of being head-over-heels in love
is certainly an enjoyable delusion while that emotional 'high' lasts,
but should we attempt to build relationships on fantasy feelings?

[Mariana]

Hi Lola,

Very interesting post!

I remember when I was young and used to say, If I date a guy I like for more than 3 months, then he may become my official boyfriend, he he. Today, it takes me just a few minutes to check if someone is right for me or not.

I think the more we gather information on healthy vs unhealthy relationships, and different personality disorders, the less we are prone to fall in love that easily.

One of the things that has radically changed in my life now is exactly that... I might like a guy a lot or feel attracted to him, but even if he looks like Brad Pitt, the minute he opens his mouth and gives the slightest sign of being Mr. Wrong... poof, I'm gone, and cannot fall in love with him.

Fairly recent, a "perfect gentleman" invited me out for dinner, it was our first date, he was a friend of a friend of mine. The conversation was okay, nothing seemed wrong, looked like someone I would normally fall in love with. BUT... when the bill came and he paid, his whole attitude around money and tipping the waiter was anything but respectful. He had this kind of attitude like saying... "I'm rich, and I can treat anyone like sh...t"

It wasn't something he said, it was his whole derogative attitude, his lack of education, his lack of class, his lack of empathy towards people who were working hard to make him enjoy a good meal, what really made me go hmmm... no no...

So, perhaps now I just lost my ability to fall blindly in love that easy, but at least the bright side is that I don't get involved with losers anymore ;)

[Lola]

Hello Mariana:

The bright side is actually that you would not "fall" blindly in love! LOL. As the article points out, the whole idea of "falling" in love is a Western construct, a fantasy, and of course good old Nature has programmed us so that we go down that road, (except that Nature would not call it "love" but something else!) so that the human race does not die out.
My father used to say: "Love is blind, and marriage is an eye-opener". (lol). Real, mature love is of course an entirely different matter to the blaze of "in-love". Problem is that the programming has been so strong, via magazines, "romantic" novels, movies, theatre, drama, that the "falling in love disease" is seen as normal, whereas it would be seen as abnormal to becomes friends first, and later learn to love.
The loser/abuser does, of course, capitalise on the tendency we have to think in terms of "in love", "sweeping off feet", "whirlwind courtships", and he (or she) produces the goods, and how!

Lola

[Mariana]

Lol, I love what your father told you!

I remember reading a book about 20 years ago, that made a "between the lines" reading of the old tales for children, such as Little Red Hood and Cinderella. The author actually compared Little Red Hood with the typical naïve-looking arm candy or golddigger of our days, and regarding Cinderella he said... and the they got married and didn't live happily ever after because right after the walked the aisle, they really began to get to know each other and all their problems started.

It was a good book, but I can't remember the title right now. Really funny, but not a shallow book at all.

;-)

[pjay]

some good material here, lola. thanks! definitely worth exploring more.

it's also interesting how both men & women stand on different sides of this same romance 'coin'.

(who are we fooling, but ourselves???? lol)

[Nancy]

Hi

I've been in a relationship for four years. We are now living together. We are very committed to each other and communication and co-operation is great. We treat each other with respect, equality and empathy. We are also conscious of our own and each others' shortcomings but accept ourselves and each other. Humour (without sarcasm!) helps us keep things fresh...and also a good dose of playfulness. All this is possible in a relationship where there is trust and which is not constantly betrayed by abuse. A far cry from my previous experience.

Thing is...we are also passionately 'in love'.

I've recently been to a talk about sexuality by a Catholic Priest (I'm Catholic) and he based his talk on the Pope's letter called 'God is Love'. The talk was about how love starts from being eros (of the flesh; possessive and passionate) and matures into agape (spiritual; self-giving). However, in order to be authentic, eros has to remain present throughout and passion does not oppose self-giving but accompanies and complements it.

I know a couple who's been married for twenty-six years and they are very passionate about each other and 'in love'. They've been through a lot of hardship but overcame everything together. Neither is abusive towards the other. When they talk about each other their face lights up and it's a joy to see. She helped me overcome my previous abusive relationship and gave me the hope I needed.

When we are 'in love' with someone who is abusive, it is more like an addiction to the rollercoaster emotions of being 'loved' in yo-yo style. Loving whilst being 'in love' and 'in lust' is a cherishing, steady feeling that takes you high but remains cosy and builds you as an individual instead of demolishing you.

I know other couples who are 'in love', 'in lust' and also have a healthy long-standing relationship. I don't think it's a fantasy at all. Love is a beautiful God-given gift. As long as both partners are into honesty, fairness and can reason logically, I think the 'fantasy' can be worked on and can become real.

[pjay]

some very good insights, nancy. thanks !

yes, i think it does not have to be all one way or the other. that 'playfulness' you refer to is definitely a deciding factor for many marriages.

i asked a guy once who was of retirement age, "when do you plan on retiring ?" he said....'when it stops being fun'.
& i wonder if that's the case in many marriages today ? (i'm out of here when it stops being fun !)

of course, any form of abusiveness is the like throwing water on a fire. i like to visit my parents, but i can hardly stand it whenever my dad insults my mom.

you really have something special, nancy, & i wish more people would show that this type of relationship is totally possible. thanks for sharing that !

[Nancy]

thanks psus for your encouraging reply :)

About the throwing water on fire....my experience in an abusive relationship is dependency and craving for his approval but not passion and fun! You might feel 'in love' for the first few months or so.... then it becomes intermittent and then it dies off. Thing is...how can you be passionate and 'in love' when you are hollowed out and your self esteem is non-existent? You actually become quite frigid and boring! Which in turn increases the abuse because the partner would look at you more and more with disgust! Abuse is the ultimate passion-killer!!

But the opposite goes for a truly loving relationship. In a loving, respectful relationship both parties feel free to be themselves and that is more fertile ground for passion and the 'in love' feeling to grow and flourish. In opposition to what most experts say, I believe that the 'in love' feeling increases with time given the right environment. I don't believe what they say about the first two years being like a honeymoon where certain chemicals are released in our brains and then it all changes into something cosy but rather bland...I wish this little voice of mine would be joined by others.

I feel like we went from one extreme to the other. We used to mistake lust for love. Now there's this current thought that love is this serious, nearly platonic affair....

[pjay]

yes, where 'both parties feel free to be themselves', this is definitely the key.

dependency & craving for approval is certainly a burden for anyone to bear. but taking responsibility for my own feelings is something that has taken me a long time to figure out.

not holding others responsible for the way that i feel, & learning not to take everything so personally has helped me in this respect. but to make others 'pay' emotionally for my own needs, this is surely abuse.

accepting that it's quite o.k. to have needs without having to be needy.

i suppose being 'in love' can be something that grows over time, as you say, given the right 'environment'.
they say....'where there is smoke there is fire'....so i suppose learning how to build a fire is something you can become good at. instead of...."how much of myself do i have to give up in order to be part of this relationship !". lol

[Nancy]

It took ME such a long time to figure out SOME THINGS! lol!

When your childhood environment is not an example of what a loving relationship should be, you have to start from a lot of false ideas and it takes such a long time for things to start making sense. I used to tell whoever asked me what I thought about 'Love', to ask someone else because I found it too confusing...

When I last went to a psychologist, she did a long personality test...one of the results was that needyness and dependence are two of my core traits!! She said i would never eradicate them from within me but I can minimise the damage....I was disconsolate...it was like a death sentence to me.

Then I decided to love myself and accept myself tenderly as I am. The needyness probably comes from my childhood where I was abused, love-starved and neglected. I decided to face this trait, and without being judgemental towards myself, restrain it as best as I can if it becomes a threat to my relationships with my partner and with those I love. Otherwise, that's who I am. There is also a good side to this trait. I am very affectionate and people who love me appreciate that :)

I was abused in the past but I don't think my abuser should be justified on the grounds that I was needy and dependent! If I was sorely damaged in my childhood, my ex-partner had no right to damage me further!

The man I'm with now acknowledges these traits with RESPECT, because even he's not perfect. Who is? Above all, he doesn't take advantage of these traits but gives me enough nurturing to make me feel safe and loved (this is one big issue....I used to be incapable of believing that I could ever be loved and that made me suspicious and defensive)....Nurturing helps to minimise the needyness. Coldness and abuse is like throwing fuel over the fire.....it used to panic me and as a result I would become more needy!! :(

Anyway....it has been a long uphill climb. I don't always agree with what the literature says. Maybe the experts set an ideal but we are struggling in a less than ideal world and we are all flawed. I know I should ideally be less needy. I'm aware of it. I struggle with it but the most important thing is that I know who I am and I have learnt to put up boudaries and even avoid people (partners, friends and family members) who are incapable of respect.....

[pjay]

boundaries is a theme that i notice mentioned quite often.
i like the line in Robert Frosts poem (mending wall) that states......"good fences make good neighbors".
this is where i draw the line, this is where i stand, this is the boundary i expect you to respect.

you've come such a long way, nancy, especially to the place where you say...'i know who i am...'

it must have been so discouraging to hear from that psychologist (an authority) those words that would have confined you to living behind locked doors. yet, isn't it sometimes strange the permission we give to others to be an 'authority' in our lives?
it almost seems that the main struggle is accepting the 'authority' we ourselves must posses in order to have control over our own lives.

"experts set an ideal but we are struggling in a less than ideal world". this is a fantastic line !
it suggests there must be a certain amount of (healthy) flexibility to our lives. things do not always have to fit perfectly together.... & that's o.k. !!

[Administrator]

Great posts, Nancy and Paul. You're so right about those things.

In the first place, it's important to differentiate between "justifying" an abuser (their behavior is not to be justified in any way) and explaining why some people abuse others. Explanations help us understand where all that negative behaviors come from, but they don't "justify" the abuser. Remember abusers may be maladjusted people, or mean people, or people with mental health disorders, who will abuse others regardless the victim is "needy" or even present!

Abusers are always to be hold accountable for their own behaviors.

On the other hand, if we don't want anyone to "abuse" us... not just emotionally, but also meaning "abuse our patience, our kindness," etc., we do need to set boundaries.

And this is something that happens even in the simplest things in life. If we are standing in a line (queue) at the bus stop, and we don't want other people to step on our toes, we need to set a physical boundary to specifically determine what "room" or space will be our "territory."

In all types of relationships (at work, for example) we also set limits so as to avoid being overloaded with other people's work. This does not make us selfish people or a bad person. It's okay to set limits to aovoid being abused in any way.

But again, abusers will behave in an abusive manner regardless of whether victims of abuse set limits or not. The difference lies in the fact that when we set a limit or boundary, abusers can't get away with their abusive behavior because we will stop them before they can abuse us.

Setting boundaries will not change the abuser's abusive nature, but it will sure spare us some headaches and uncomfortable scenarios with abusive people.

I've discuss a bit about this on my comment to Dr. Simon's blog at: http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/05/14/empowerment-tool...

All the best!

Mariana

[Lola]

I am all for passion and lust and fun. Why not?! I think it is great. If it lasts, in addition to the "agape" kind of love, for 20, 30 or 40 years, well that is great too.
But I still do not think one can build a lasting relationship on a mirage (the kind produced by the abuser/disordered).

So so many people have plunged into entirely the wrong type of relationship because of the fantasy of "romance" and "whirlwinds" and "candlelit dinners", all peddled with such enthusiasm and indeed expertise by Western media.
Sigh! I wish I had a pound for every story (here in real life) I have listened to down the years, where the "great future" perished on the rock of spurious romance.
On the other hand, I know couples who have been married upwards of 35 and 40 years, and all I do know (because they have said so) is that marriage is quite hard work. I can see that they love each other, in a steady contented way, although maybe in their private moments, they indulge in their own whirlwinds! LOL. Why not!

Lola