toxic shame ??

[pjay]

hey, i sometimes read this one weekly newspaper column by the 'advise goddess' , mainly because i'm curious about different perspectives on the dynamics of relationships.

anyways, her response to this guy included a suggested book reading by dr. robert glover called 'no more mr. nice guy'.
without going into the whole article, she inferred that maybe this guys problems stemmed from trying too hard to be a people pleaser, being too afraid of his own flaws, & having the bad habit of repressing his feelings & denying his needs.

but what caught my eye was her mentioning this phrase 'toxic shame'.
did this author coin this phrase, or is this a common term used to describe a certain situation ?

has anyone ever heard ( or read) about this before ? or experienced it ?

i appreciate your thoughts !

[Lola]

Well, Psus, I just don't know. I cannot even imagine what it would be like, experiencing toxic shame. Very evidently, toxic shame does not happen in a vacuum. Abused people do experience it, because they are manipulated and forced into believing that they (the abused) should be ashamed of themselves, for causing themselves to be abused!! It is to awful to even think about IMO, and I believe a lot of help is required in eventually ridding the person of the shame.

Lola

[pjay]

hmmmm, interesting. that word 'trust' just jumped out at me.

i wonder if you can experience lesser degrees than the extreme form of 'toxic' , that can be just as debilitating ?

i suppose, in a sense, you become enemies with yourself ??

[Lola]

http://soulselfhelp.on.ca/tshame.html

For good measure:

NEUROTIC SYNDROMES OF SHAME



"What is the shame that binds you? How did it get set up in your life? What happens to healthy shame in the process?

Toxic shame, the shame that binds you, is experienced as teh all pervasive sense that I am flawed adn defective as a human being. Toxic shame is no longer an emotion that signals our limits, it is a state of being, a core identity. Toxic shame gives you a sense of worthlessness, a sense of failing and falling short as a human being. Toxic shame is a rupture of the self with the self.

It is like internal bleeding. Exposure to oneself lies at the heart of toxic shame. A shame based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself.

Toxic shame is so excruciating because it is the painful exposure of the believed failure of self to the self. [selves to selves too we believe] In toxic shame the self becomes an object that can't be trusted, one exeriences oneself [selves] as untrustworthy. Toxic shame is experienced as inner torment, a sickness of the soul. If I'm an object that can't be trusted, then I'm not in me. Toxic shame is paradoxical and self-generating. There is shame about shame. People will readily admit guilt, hurt or fear before they will admit shame. Toxic shame is ghe feeling of being isolated and alone in a complete sense. A shame-based person is haunted by a sense of absence and emptiness..."

[Lola]

Heh heh Psus. Well, let me try again...
So, "normal" shame, is, when I am ashamed of myself for doing something which perhaps I should not have done.
Toxic shame is being ashamed when you have nothing to be ashamed of in the first place. (quoting: thanks to a lifetime repressing his feelings & denying his needs...."). That is, he is ashamed for not being nice (not a great effort at an adjective "nice", but there it is).

Being a "nice" person is not a curse (as in being a kind, considerate, stable person). Being a "pushover", a "people pleaser" is a curse, I should think.
There is a difference. You can be nice, very nice, and yet be assertive and have your boundaries. You help people when you can (not all the time!!), and when you can't you simply say "no" (wonderful word: "no"). Saying "no" does not automatically make one a "bad" person.
That is at the heart of the article:
"people will warm to the real you or they won't, but they're unlikely to be fooled by a fake you, "nice" or "bad"."
and
"be who you are & have the guts & the self-respect to expect a thing or two from people".

That's the way to go!

Lola

[pjay]

ok, i think i got the toxic part, but how does that relate to shame ?

i suppose i should include the whole article, in order to put my original question into context.
(i already know that some of this flies in the face of current discourse as it relates to abuse)
but once in a while she does hit on some very good points.

Q) can you help a nice guy become a bad boy ? being nice is a curse, & not just w/woman. i do volunteer work & always hear stuff like "you're the only one we can trust, so stay & guard the door while we're at a party...& clean up for us too because we won't want to when we return tired & drunk. "
i know a cooperative spirit can be mistaken for weakness, but i feel like cinderfella. still, i don't want to stop being the guy my ex called "the brick" (because i'm always propping someone else up).
i just want people to think i'm bad, so they won't try to get away w/so much.
when i've tried acting like a bad boy, i'm told that i come off as angry or antisocial. maybe i should start smoking or get a motorcycle or a tatoo ? -55 years of too nice.

A) sure, all you need to change everybody's opinion of you is a smoking habit & a big, scary tattoo- & since you're always mopping up after people, perhaps a skull crossed w/a couple of swiffers ?
you call yourself a nice guy, but you're really a "nice guy", an approval-seeking, conflict-avoiding suck-up.
in "no more mr. nice guy", dr.robert glover clarifies the difference.
the "nice guy" might seem generous, but he actually isn't; he gives to get. he thinks he just has to hide how flawed he is & become what others want him to be. & he'll be loved, get his needs met & have a problem-free life.
this is unlikely to happen, as he's passive-aggressive, chronically dishonest & brimming w/"toxic shame".
thanks to a lifetime repressing his feelings & denying his needs, he's filled w/rage, especially at women.

women, on the other hand, do love this guy- to wash & wax their cars while they're on dates w/guys they ARE sleeping with.
yes, the bad boy does have allure. he's masculinity on steroids: arrogantly confident, aggressive in bed & out, unpredictable & untamed. he's fast cars, alcohol, tobacco & firearms. & he's sometimes in jail. many woman are drawn to him.

people will warm to the real you or they won't, but they're unlikely to be fooled by a fake you, "nice" or "bad".
after 55 years of people-pleasing, don't be surprised if you need to mount an archaeological dig to figure out who you really are- what you like, want, need & actually care about (even stuff that seems not so nice to care about). after you do, work on accepting yourself, faults included. glover's book should help.
finally, be who you are & have the guts & the self-respect to expect a thing or two from people- beyond what time they'll return from the party, so you can stop staring at the door.

amy alkon, 171 pier ave, 280, santa monica, ca. [e-mail]

[Lola]

Hello Psus:

Yes, this expression "toxic" is commonly used, often interchanged with "malignant", as in that very apt expression "Malignant Optimism" (of the abused). And then we have "malignant (aka toxic) nostalgia", where the victim looks back with fondness on the abuser who "maybe wasn't so bad after all, and maybe I should go back to him!).

I'd like to coin a phrase myself for abusers. "Hazmat" (hazardous material)!

All the best
Lola


I think we can safely say that abusers would come under the heading "toxic people". Poisonous and dangerous.

[Mariana]

Hi Psus, I never heard of that exact term before, but I don't know if that author coined the term. Here in Argentina, the word "toxic" is the latest fashion. Several books have that word in their titles (Toxic People, Toxic Emotions, etc.)

It's interesting the connotation the word has and the "marketing" impact as well :) - Must be an interesting article to read too.